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Author Topic: If Jesus didn't shun the unbelievers and sinners, why would jehovah's witnesses shun theirs?  (Read 399 times)
The_truth_shall_se
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« on: July 14, 2011, 05:29:43 PM »

Provocative Bible Verses: Treat Them Like an UnbelieverPosted: January 9, 2010 by Dan Lacich in forgiveness
There is a history in much of the church that calls for shunning people who do not repent of sin. In part that practice is picked up from the words of Jesus in Matthew 18 where he says that if a person refuses to repent after a process that involved three different encounters calling for them to repent, then they should be “treated like a pagan or tax collector”.

15“If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. 16But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ 17If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector. Matthew 18:15-17

So just what does it mean to treat someone as a pagan or a tax collector? I think Jesus gives us the answer to that and it is far different from the shunning, rejection, and self-righteous attitude that is so often practiced by Christians. When we see Jesus engaging pagans and tax-collectors, or any other group of unbelieving sinners, we see someone who gives them huge amounts of time, attention, and grace. So much so that the religious leaders accuse him of being one of those pagans. In Matthew 11:19 Jesus says that they accuse him of being a drunkard because he spends so much time with the sinners.

Jesus showed unending love and respect to the “pagans and tax-collectors”. He treated them with the dignity that was due someone created in the image of God. He didn’t ignore their sin and he certainly did not condone it. When a woman who was caught in adultery was brought to Jesus he forgave her and said, “go and sin no more”. It acknowledged that what she did was wrong, but also gave her mercy and grace. That was his pattern. He gave people grace and mercy and treated them with dignity while calling them to a more holy way of life.

It must also be noted that Jesus spend a great deal of time with such people. In fact he would go out of his way to do so. The woman at the well, the home of Zacheaus the tax-collector, and the wedding at Cana are all examples of Jesus making time to spend with people who were not perfect, cleaned up, respectable church going types. What he did was love them.

But aren’t we supposed to love everyone? If so in what way is our treatment of someone who is a tax collector or pagan different from how we treat a brother or sister in Christ? That is the heart of the issue because Jesus began in verse 15 by saying is a “brother” sins against you. This is about how you treat a person who is also a follower of Christ who will not be reconciled to you. That person you are to treat like a pagan or tax-collector.

So what to you NOT do with people outside the Body of Christ that you do with people inside? One thing is you do not have communion with them. Communion, the Lord’s Supper, is to be a believer only event. In the early church it was a meal, just like the Last Supper in the Upper Room. It was an intimate religious and social event that included a confession of faith in Jesus as Lord and looking forward to his return. Only followers of Christ participated in it. In fact as worship services became more public and had non-believers present, when it came time for communion, they would be dismissed. It is from this biblical concept that the Roman Catholic Church denies communion to people who are not in good standing. It is a practice that most Protestant churches also have in their history. So what is being said is that treating someone like a pagan or tax-collector means that you do not include them in things that are reserved for followers of Jesus. You don’t have communion with them. You don’t marry them. You probably don’t pray with them though you can pray for them. You would not allow them to serve in a position of spiritual leadership but you would allow them to serve in some capacity that does not require faith in Christ. I have had non-believers go on mission trips that did not require faith in Christ, only the ability to swing a hammer.

The point is, there are lots of things that you can and should do with tax-collectors and pagans if you want to be like Jesus. Likewise there are lots of things that you can and should do with the brother or sister in Christ who has sinned against you. The goal of doing those things to either group, is to demonstrate the love, grace, and mercy of God in order to lead them to repentance and restored relationships with you and Jesus. Paul said in Romans 2:4 that it is God’s kindness that leads us to repentance. That kindness should be evident in our dealings with one another, even if we are required to treat someone as a tax-collector or sinner. The goal of such treatment is not to exclude them from the fell
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M_aiq_the_liar
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« Reply #1 on: July 17, 2011, 06:11:33 PM »

People are jerks sometimes.
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Danielle_J
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« Reply #2 on: July 19, 2011, 03:26:46 AM »

because jehovah witnesses are fakes and are totally lost to what is right.
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Aileen
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« Reply #3 on: July 21, 2011, 02:26:21 AM »

i agree with what Danielle J said
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Sean_Trank
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« Reply #4 on: July 21, 2011, 01:19:07 PM »

JW dont know the real Jesus
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Uncle_Thesis
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« Reply #5 on: July 21, 2011, 02:13:15 PM »

That's quite the wall of words you got there.
I couldn't read it without thinking this person has baggage.
Phrases like, "self-righteous attitude" are totally misleading.
The problem is not with the Biblical practice of 'shunning' ........it is with your attitude.
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Te_Rex
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« Reply #6 on: July 22, 2011, 05:58:05 AM »

.
.

JWs do not even believe that Jesus is a part if the God-head -

And what's more they do not believe God.

.
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Galatians_5_1
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« Reply #7 on: July 22, 2011, 06:57:38 AM »

You have inspired Holy Spirit to answer here I am sure.  Jesus is the WAY, and His love for His enemies was then, and is now an outstanding example to follow for true Christians today. I was a baptized Jehovah's Witness for 40 years, and left because of doctrinal and spiritual reasons. They come into my wife's place of work, and make a special effort for her to see that they are shunning her and looking  down and away from her, in front of her customers at times. My wife happily greets them with a smile, and says "hello, it's good to see you, I know you cannot speak to me, but I still love you"...they always turn and RUN out of the store, after their failed attempt at making my wife feel like she has lost something. Thank you for exposing the Jesus we know now. If they only knew the force of powerful good we have in our lives with Christ, it would truly shame their heads.

I am ashamed for the witnesses here that know people like my wife, and myself, who left because we disagreed with the doctrine of the resurrection as taught by the WTBTS. We are not fornicators, or practicers of sin. We have our faith in our Lord Jesus, and His father. They shun us because they are told to do so, not caring that we are spiritually clean, and not caring that we do not shun them. Our son has vowed to never speak to me, or his mom again, because we "left Jehovah"..We left a belief system, not our God.  We do not mind their shunning, as we know that they do not understand the love of Jesus Christ, but only the commands of men to obey them, and shun us so they will not learn why we truly left. They are forced to claim that we are fornicators, or worse, running with all manner of the dregs of society, in order to puff themselves up, at the expense of those that just believe in God with their God-given Conscience. We forgive them all, and hope the day comes when they will have the genuine love that you have so elegantly portrayed here.Thank you for that.

In Christ

Joe and Mary Zarola
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Mom_C
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« Reply #8 on: July 22, 2011, 07:16:23 AM »

Before a person is shunned they are given a chance to repent.  Once you have declared your loyalty to Jehovah you must abide by his laws.  A person is not disfellowshipped for an action but for an attitude.  It has to be a very serious mistake.  Such as immoral sexual behavior.  Jesus did not condone that nor fornicators nor adulterers did he?  Everyone makes mistakes.  But if you do not want to follow God's laws then you can not associate with others in the congregation.  This is a protection for them also.  We must keep the congregation clean in order to receive God's blessing.  Sometimes the act of disfellowshipping someone causes that person to really look at their actions and realize that they have sinned seriously against Jehovah.  Those people can come back to Jehovah if they show true repentance.  Other religions put up with their congregations sins.  People sleep around, lie, cheat, steal and their clergy just wink and look the other way.  The first century Christians were punished for their shameless conduct also.

(2 John 8-11) . . .. 9 Everyone that pushes ahead and does not remain in the teaching of the Christ does not have God. He that does remain in this teaching is the one that has both the Father and the Son. 10 If anyone comes to YOU and does not bring this teaching, never receive him into YOUR homes or say a greeting to him. 11 For he that says a greeting to him is a sharer in his wicked works.

They are to be shunned.
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True_Truthseeker
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« Reply #9 on: July 22, 2011, 08:06:44 AM »

At every opportunity Jesus the Christ would advise, "..go and sin no more", Jesus definitely did
not condone wrong doing.


1 Corinthians 5: 1-5 and 2 Corinthians 2: 6-8.
Let us read 1 Corinthians 5:1 to 3; Actually fornication is reported among you, and such fornication
as is not even among the nations, that a wife a certain [man] has of [his] father. And are you puffed
up, and did you not rather mourn, in order that the man that committed this deed should be taken
away from your midst? I for one, although absent in body but present in spirit, have
certainly judged already, as if I were present, the man who has worked in such a way as this,...

2 Corinthians 2:7A, reads: ..so that, on the contrary now, you should kindly forgive and
comfort [him], ......

As recorded at John 4:23, 24; for us to WORSHIP Jehovah God in an
APPROVED way we NEED to do so in SPIRIT and TRUTH.
Psalm 119:160 and John17: 17 show that God's Word as recorded in the Bible is TRUTH.
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TeeM
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« Reply #10 on: July 22, 2011, 08:33:42 AM »

How is Jesus going to treat such ones?

John 3:36 He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

Matt 25: 24 “And the one also who had received the one talent came up and said, ‘Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow and gathering where you scattered no seed. 25 And I was afraid, and went away and hid your talent in the ground. See, you have what is yours.’

   26 “But his master answered and said to him, ‘You wicked, lazy slave, . . . 30 Throw out the worthless slave into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Remember these are people who know what is right and fails to obey.

James 4:16-17
New American Standard Bible (NASB)

16 But as it is, you boast in your arrogance; all such boasting is evil. 17 Therefore, to one who knows the right thing to do and does not do it, to him it is sin.

.
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Phyllis
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« Reply #11 on: July 22, 2011, 08:48:04 AM »

I totally agree with Mom C, and you have missed the concept of what disfellowshipping is. It's not for the average non-believer,it's for as 2 JO 8-11 states anyone who does not REMAIN in the teachings of
Christ, who willfully sins and does not have a repentant attitude. Anyone called a BROTHER who is a continued gross sinner with an unrepentant attitude. 1 Cor 5:11-13. The discipline works out good for those with the right heart condition. Heb. 12:6+11 It is inconceivable to me for someone to leave Jehovah and not come back, I left for some twenty years or so due to my own stupidity and foolishness
but there was nothing that any church could hold me with for I knew the truth of God's Word and when he allowed me to I remembered who I truly was and came home. It's the love that you have in your heart for Jehovah, that special bond that brings you back. If you don't have that-you have nothing.
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Mediator
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« Reply #12 on: July 22, 2011, 09:00:13 AM »

The Jehovah Witnesses a.k.a. Jehovah's Witnesses, a branch of the original Adventism movement in the mid-1800s, came about because the guy who started this whole anti-Catholic brand of Christianity turned out to be completely and utterly wrong in his prediction that the world would end in, what, 1846, something like that. So the roots of this branch of Protestantism (they won't call themselves Protestant though) is very shallow. Less than 200 years. The beliefs JWs have taken from the Catholic Church are many, so there is hope. However, when it comes to shunning, what JWs are trying to do is not shun their fellow man, but to shun the rampant hedonism that is everywhere in society. How can you say they shun when they show up at the door ALL THE TIME and want to proclaim witness to God as they understand him? No I don't read the garbage they hand out, but you'll find that as people, they are just like you and me. Pick on the enemy, those things that go against God, and harp on that. If they end up attacking your faith, understand they have very little of the fullness of doctrinal substance of the Catholic Church because they simply can't have it both ways. At some point, many of them will come back to Mother Church. In the meantime, grin and bear it and look for commonality. Jesus Christ came to bring salvation to ALL mankind, not just a few. Pray for them. Now, just for shtis and giggles, you can bust out a rosary when they start on the spiel and fondle the beads with mischevious love. I'm still waiting for one of them to run screaming down the street, but it hasn't happened yet. Most of the anti-Catholic attacks from JWs here are possible for one reason: anonymity. But our Father in heaven knows what's in our hearts. ALL of our hearts. JWs are growing, but they are still under 7 million in total population. There's more people than that who are still watching Green Acres reruns on a regular basis (hand raised in praise to the swine god Arnold).
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BAR__ANERGES
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« Reply #13 on: July 22, 2011, 09:18:57 AM »

Greetings,

Any person who believes that Christ did not teach or support disfellowshiping or shunning willfully wicked individuals simply does not know the Bible nor Christ.

Jesus said: "If he does not listen even to the congregation, let him be to you just as a man of the nations and as a tax collector" (Mt. 18:17).

Barnes’ Notes say: “Gentile...Publicans were men of abandoned character, and the Jews would have no intercourse with them. The meaning of this is, cease to have religious intercourse with him, to acknowledge him as a brother. Regard him as obstinate, self-willed, and guilty...we should disown him as a Christian brother...This is the only way of kindness. This is the only way to preserve peace and purity in the church.”

Smith's Bible Dictionary:
"Excommunication, as exercised by the Christian Church, is not merely founded on the natural right, possessed by all societies, nor merely on the example of the Jewish Church and nation. It was instituted by our Lord (Mt.18:15,18), and it was practised and commanded by St. Paul (1Tim.1:20; 1Cor.5:11; Tit.3:10).”

Christ’s teachings repeatedly showed that a willful incorrigible reprobate would be “cast out” from true worshipers, especially in the “last days” during his second presence. And that “his servants” would be commanded to carry out this command (Mt 22:12,13; 25:30; 13:49-50; 24:51).

Christ Jesus even disfellowships on what many might think are trivial grounds: “So, because you are lukewarm and neither hot nor cold, I am going to vomit you out of my mouth” (Re 3:15-16).


Obviously, the Apostles understood that Christ commanded the expelling of obstinate sinners since Paul showed that it was done with Christ's authority: “That in the name of our Lord Jesus YOU hand such a man over to Satan” (1Co 5:4-5).

1Co 5:12-13: ”Remove the wicked man from among yourselves.”
2Th 3:6,14: “Now we are giving YOU orders in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, to withdraw from every brother walking disorderly.”
“But if anyone is not obedient to our word through this letter, keep this one marked, stop associating with him, that he may become ashamed.”

(2Jn. 10,11; Rm. 16:17,18; Tit 3:10-11; Num. 16:25-26).


Eerdman's Dictionary of the Bible says:
"Excommunication. The permanent or temporary exclusion of a church member from fellowship within the community. This practice, specifically mentioned in Matthew's Gospel (Mt.18:15-17) and the Corinthian correspondence (1Cor. 5:5; 2Cor.2:6), served 2 purposes. First, it protects the community from the harmful influence of the sinner (1Cor.5:6-7). Second, it reminds the sinner of the sin (2Cor.2:7) in the hope that repentance (7:9) and redemption occur...Although the term `excommunication' does not appear in Scripture, the concept is clearly present. Matthew instructs the Church to treat unrepentant members like `a Gentile and a tax collector' (Mt.18:17), and Paul wants the guilty party delivered `over to Satan' (1Cor.5:5), i.e., delivered over to the realm of Satan, the world outside the Church. Church discipline, ending in excommunication, should only be used for serious matters such as blatant sexual sins (1Cor.5:1), unrepentance (Mt.18:15-17), factiousness (Tit. 3:10-11), and the propagation of heresy (Rm.16:17). Sinners should be dealt with quickly and seriously for both the health of the community and the spiritual health of the offender."


The NASB Study Bible says in a footnote at 1Cor. 5:11-13: “Calling oneself a Christian who continues to live an immoral life is reprehensible and degrading, and gives a false testimony to Christ. If the true Christian has intimate association with someone who does this, the non-Christian world may assume that the church approves such immoral, ungodly living and thus the name of Christ would be dishonored.”


Any Christian who got involved in immoral practices would be lovingly helped to change his way (Gal 6:1; Js. 5: 19,20). If he repents “it will be forgiven him” (Jas.5:14-16; Ac.17:30; Pro.28:13). If they are unrepentant the true Christian congregation would keep itself "without spot from the world" by “reproving before all onlookers” “stop mixing in company” with the individual by “removing the wicked man from among ourselves" (Jas. 1:27; 1Tim. 5:20; 1Cor.5:11-13).

The true Christian religion would follow Christ’s lead and God's commands and remove willful sinners from their midst. Any religion which does not follow this mandate cannot be truly Christian.

BAR-ANERGES
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